Ascencion, Afterlife, Fatality, and Misc Items

[Dune Edenbaum]

I have a few suggestions as to how to make this game even better. (Hell what am I saying?! There are a ton of features that could be added to this game to make it better!) Not that it isn't already as awesome as it already is.

1st one I think would be if perma-death were included into the game. If you were to kill someone that shouldn't totally be the end. The person should have a chance to be able to still play by entering into an "Afterlife". In this afterlife this person could attempt to ascend to god-hood and attempt to create his own religion thus giving player religions a true divine entity to fall back on. The afterlife option could have hundreds of uses for "mortal" players such as summoning other entities, creating portals from one place to another, tapping their energies into the afterlife, etc. This could also lead to a ton of features for the "god" players who could make an entire realm in they're own world. They could be able to enter into the material realm by being summoned or by themselves, rain down fire (or whatever you would) upon people who betrayed them, give blessings unto they're followers, etc. Of course there should be a limit to they're powers as well as spirits (of which if players don't want to be gods they could just remain in the spirit world and do other tasks of whatever they like to do).

Another thing that would be fun would be to put in a "fatality" system or a "spare his life" system. An option of whether you want to kill him, kill him brutally, knock him out and let him live, or just let him live. This would be fun if you wanted to kill some evil fiend (or good) in style. Or if you wanted to just kidnap someone you could just knock him out and take him and if your a humanitarian or some imperious overlord; you could give the person a choice to serve you, run away or whatever and not kill him.

3rd is just something of miscellaneous items such as books, pens, cans, trash bins, darts, teddy bear, or other possibly useless items that could be foraged and used in gadgets or just for possessions to keep to decorate a house if you make a hut in a village and give it authenticity. Say you wanted to write something down ingame or write it to another person you could take a notebook, diary, piece of paper and give it to them. Use a teddy bear and put it in a cannon! Make a radio satellite out of miscellaneous trash. Etc. etc. etc.

[Veldern]

They have talked about the possibility of perma-death, and decided that it might be an option, but they weren't going into detail with it now (they said around when they introduce religion.) as per your other ideas, they're going to have a "dueling" option, if I remember right, and as far as I know, your third is also in the game as per the "scavenging" skill.

[Dune Edenbaum]

Huh go figure. Though they haven't gone into deep detail on the perma-death so I guess I added something that might be useful.

[Veldern]

They talked about it somewhere, but I don't remember how much detail they went into. If anyone would like to put a link... (I'm lazy :P)

[Farmerbob]

So will evil people be able to carve up their dead enemies for bones to use in crafting? Or meat? lol.

[Dune Edenbaum]

That would be interesting.

[kiwibird]

Of the top of my head, I hope so, bonecrafting will require bones after all, for those interested in oblivion and morrowind necrophilia... I mean necromancy(!) was and still is a great content mod that the game simply wont fulfil, and the TES book would have made it a great game with necrophilia.... err *mancy! in it.

[Kitsume]

Somehow, I don't think the materials for the full human bone set armor came from a deer or rabbit.


Last pic in the outfits concept art.

[Farmerbob]

Kitsume wrote:

Somehow, I don't think the materials for the full human bone set armor came from a deer or rabbit.


Last pic in the outfits concept art.

Good point, but isn't Lake Tahoe Sasquatch territory?

[necoo]

Veldern wrote:

They talked about it somewhere, but I don't remember how much detail they went into. If anyone would like to put a link... (I'm lazy :P)

it was briefly discussed in the pvp vs pk impressions thread thing 70-something page... http://www.xsyon.com/forums/28-features/9052-pvp-vs-pk-and-some-general-impressions?limit=10&start=730
it might have been discussed somewhere else but im not sure

[Firefork]

Dune Edenbaum wrote:


1st one I think would be if perma-death were included into the game. If you were to kill someone that shouldn't totally be the end. The person should have a chance to be able to still play by entering into an "Afterlife". In this afterlife this person could attempt to ascend to god-hood and attempt to create his own religion thus giving player religions a true divine entity to fall back on. The afterlife option could have hundreds of uses for "mortal" players such as summoning other entities, creating portals from one place to another, tapping their energies into the afterlife, etc. This could also lead to a ton of features for the "god" players who could make an entire realm in they're own world. They could be able to enter into the material realm by being summoned or by themselves, rain down fire (or whatever you would) upon people who betrayed them, give blessings unto they're followers, etc. Of course there should be a limit to they're powers as well as spirits (of which if players don't want to be gods they could just remain in the spirit world and do other tasks of whatever they like to do).

Really? it wold be a disaster for the game with perma death.
You have waited several years RT, to play this game and now you
will pay monthly fee for a game that you don't want to play?

Perma death is for bord games and not mmo IMO.
PD is early 2000, and games that tryed it has NOT been successful
at all, games like SWG, with PD on jedi for a short while untill the crowd of player made a statement. "take it away or we quit"

everquest with Discord for a brief period, Hellgate closed the last server end 2009 and a NEW one named Hellgate Ressurection (nice name) is on it's way, without PD.

The list of games that has PD is not long and the list has exact
same length with abandoned/closed game in that genre. why?

just my opinion of it

[jessebfox]

Firefork wrote:


The list of games that has PD is not long and the list has exact
same length with abandoned/closed game in that genre. why?

just my opinion of it

Because it wasn't done well? Because you lost everything when you died? Xsyon stated that it will be different, rewarding, and optional. The optional part kinda ensures it won't kill the game. Well not a 100% guarantee but you get what I am saying. (I hope)

[Munion]

Firefork wrote:

Dune Edenbaum wrote:

Hellgate closed the last server end 2009 and a NEW one named Hellgate Ressurection (nice name) is on it's way, without PD.

The list of games that has PD is not long and the list has exact
same length with abandoned/closed game in that genre. why?

just my opinion of it

Hellgate failed for a lot of reasons besides Permadeath. Not to mention the servers shut down because the company running them closed down, there was still a following for the game, most of whom are waiting eagerly for the Korean remade version to launch over here. Hell lots are playing the Korean version illegally anyway. What about Diablo 2, that has a large Hardcore mode following even still. Mythos also head perma death option when it was in beta, was a decently popular feature and a lot of fun in an mmo.

[Firefork]

ok, i can't see any game-improvement with permadeath that will make the game more attractive against other mmo's.
You need to fill the servers with satisfied customer to survive
as a company and have a nice cash-flow in.

I can't say today that PD (understand "PERMADEATH"=
it's over) has any thrill at all. The thrill for ME in a game is
Explorer, Adventure, Loot, Social etc.

A mmo should be a happy journey with lots of PVE/pvp/WPVP or whatever, not PD it just destroy the meaning of an mmo.

"Massive Multiplayer Online" or
"Massive two games in on multiplayer online with 10% living ppl the rest are dead but here in an other dimension"

I can't even see how to bring in a DP with a different dimension that you can't do anything about, are you dead so are you dead. and take it like OP in a dimension thing will be like "die fast in Xsyon because everyone are dead" :D. Whats the meaning of it?

I can see how the little, little mass of hardcore ppl are willing to do anything for the thrill of DP.

But ask yourself why don't they introduce PD in all other mmo's
if it will be the benefit for the company?
No it just not fit in, and you can't make an living on it.

And regards Mythos, that wasn't that so brilliant at all.
It's all about cash-flow and businesses, no customer = closed servers.

Things in a mmo is how the customer react on the game, expansions etc. ONE mistake and it's over. We have seen it, SWG is the biggest mistake anyone has did until today. SOE have even courses about that mistake they did. One person's idea implemented and indoctrinate on a whole crew of dev,s and employees. Be a Jedi over a night :D

once again, it just my opinion.

[Farmerbob]

Permadeath can be made attractive to some of the playerbase by simply attaching nice benefits to it.

In Wurm, when you meet the requirements to do so, you can become a champion of your god. When you become a champion, you get many stat bonuses, several skill bonuses, the ability to cast many spells that priests can't cast unless they link their favor pools, a very large damage reduction (in the range of 50%) and three lives.

Basically champions are the juggernauts of Wurm PVP. Regular players can kill them 1-on-1 if the champion is a young character who foolishly went champ early, and the non-champ is good, but a highly experienced many-years-old PVP character that decides to go champ is hell on wheels, and extremely difficult to kill.

[Reefer]

Firefork wrote:

ok, i can't see any game-improvement with permadeath that will make the game more attractive against other mmo's.
You need to fill the servers with satisfied customer to survive
as a company and have a nice cash-flow in.

I can't say today that PD (understand "PERMADEATH"=
it's over) has any thrill at all. The thrill for ME in a game is
Explorer, Adventure, Loot, Social etc.

A mmo should be a happy journey with lots of PVE/pvp/WPVP or whatever, not PD it just destroy the meaning of an mmo.

"Massive Multiplayer Online" or
"Massive two games in on multiplayer online with 10% living ppl the rest are dead but here in an other dimension"

I can't even see how to bring in a DP with a different dimension that you can't do anything about, are you dead so are you dead. and take it like OP in a dimension thing will be like "die fast in Xsyon because everyone are dead" :D. Whats the meaning of it?

I can see how the little, little mass of hardcore ppl are willing to do anything for the thrill of DP.

But ask yourself why don't they introduce PD in all other mmo's
if it will be the benefit for the company?
No it just not fit in, and you can't make an living on it.

And regards Mythos, that wasn't that so brilliant at all.
It's all about cash-flow and businesses, no customer = closed servers.

Things in a mmo is how the customer react on the game, expansions etc. ONE mistake and it's over. We have seen it, SWG is the biggest mistake anyone has did until today. SOE have even courses about that mistake they did. One person's idea implemented and indoctrinate on a whole crew of dev,s and employees. Be a Jedi over a night :D

once again, it just my opinion.

Well first, if this game delivers on the promised features it's already a no-brainer over all the other MMOs. Giant world changed by the player (right down to terraforming), buildings and villages wherever you want them (with all kinds of options, not just "build shack here," like most of the major MMOs that have some stripped down version of construction), interactive combat, so on and so forth. If they deliver what they put in the list they could make every character a gigantic purple dildo and they'd still have good numbers of people playing.

Permadeath might not have any attraction for you, but some people like thrill in their game. Hence the ridiculously large number of people who just want an updated version of the old-school Ultima online (even talk of a new official server running the old version has stirred up huge interest (over a game that looks like a warm turd by today's standards... hell, by a decade ago's standards). No its not the same thing but they loved it because it was THRILLING, which no MMO really is today. Its all reward without any of the risk in the current MMO field, except a few smaller projects like this, Darkfall, Mortal, etc. This makes the rewards pretty pointless except to the people who like to go around towns and brag about the 1337 top level gear. Anybody can get all the best stuff, it doesn't take any skill just grinding (hint; when you have risk in a game you can substitute that for grinding! lol)

Same answer to the happy journey. There are plenty of risk-free MMOs out there. This game will have plenty of mechanics to allow you a relatively safe existence (i.e. WALLS).

A game with a spirit world would in no way disqualify it from a MMO designation, tho I don't particularly like the idea (except maybe as part of the respawn system, like you have to do something in the spirit world, mebbe walk or fly back to your village or something similar).

Your next comment was pretty garbled. I agree that the whole idea of trying to satisfy people with life as a spirit is kind of silly. If you want some spirit type gameplay just add astral projection to the magic system.

The mass of "hardcore" players isn't little. Again, refer to the fanbase of original UO, guys who are in every single mmo/forum and who probably outnumber the subscribers of any but the largest MMOs. If you define them as people who want forced permadeath then yes they are small numbers. Most set the definition between a carebear and a hardcore mmo'er at wanting open pvp, though, which this game apparently will already have with some sensible legalities to keep it from being just a frag fest.

They don't introduce PD to other MMOs because everquest and WoW don't have it and pretty much every big budget mmo out there is just emulating those (and WoW was little more than a new EQ for that matter. Virtually the same boring playstyle). The big boys in gaming now are all racing to see who can spend the most money; they are catering to the mass market which doesn't care about anything other than pretty graphics and leveling. Their games succeed because of their name and the fact that they've got the requisite levelling addiction mechanism which has generally been the only draw of most MMOs (they've never had gameplay that was up to date with other genres of their time, even the "good" mmos). xsyon's devs don't have a big name, so quite simply they will NOT succeed using the same strategy as the big name developers - Hype, rely on your name to put you in the competition then rely on your graphics to pull the sheep over from the other big names. Again, since they're introducing actual entertaining gameplay that would be entertaining even without the levelling system behind it (again, interactive combat and crafting and player built society, completely player run game, etc, the levelling and skill system is just a nice taste of the mmo hook to make it more entertaining, but the game would be great w/o it if it had all its other features and everyone just automatically ahd the same stats) (ask yourself, would anyone play WoW without leveling? Are you a good enough liar to say yes?) The big companies only know what has worked in the past, what is drawing large numbers of subscribers now, and quite simply they will NOT diverge from that when they're spending tens of millions of dollars a game. Big name gaming companies today don't take risks, incase you haven't noticed the invasion of re-packaged sequels (for instance Modern Warfare and Modern Warfare 2 which is basically a lite Modern Warfare expansion pack that cost $60 and doesn't even let you play the maps from the main game)

I think by "that wasn't that so brilliant at all" you mean their mention of the possibility of permadeath (WHICH THE PLAYER CAN CHOOSE). Basically you're saying it wasn't smart of them to allow the player to exchange his functional immortality for some reward. WHY? In your very next comment you were talking of how SWG was ruined by people wanting jedi to be more easily attainable, so you want the same for the xsyon equivalent? You talk about how its all about money and user count (its not btw, a MMO can make damn good money with a smaller user count and at almost no risk compared to the big boys that could sink their company over a bad release; small developers don't spend 15m on bleeding edge graphics and advertising and super giganto server farms on day one that require you employing a massive staff to maintain and buying enough electricity to run a small town, without even considering the rental on the servers), then you provide an example of how players absolutely WRECK most MMOs by demanding every feature that they think will give them an advantage without considering how much it cheapens the gameplay in general. Most people are too stupid to tell the difference between something they WANT in the game and something that will make the game more fun. I like that the devs are looking for good suggestions/feedback on the forum, but I sure hope they don't go the route of a lot of MMOs and just cave in to even the most ridiculous user demands as long as there are enough fools shouting the idiocy. If thats the case then there's no chance at all things like open pvp will stay in, towns will become permanent safe zones forever, heck even individual shacks will be like fortresses made of pure unobtainium. Everything that could possibly inconvenience players will be removed and we'll get another bland and pointless MMO that has nothing more than the suggestion of real "accomplishment" (I parenthesize because of course you don't accomplish anything significant in a game, but it is theoretically possible to accomplish something significant in the game world rather than the real world, thats just not seen in many MMOs).

All that being said I think that the players who just want to live as a peaceful crafter or hunter or politician or whatever should be able to IF THEY'RE SMART ABOUT IT. NOONE should be able to simply disregard danger. This game does this pretty well according to the features and dev discussions.

As to the original idea, the idea of player gods is I think a good one and yes anyone who decides to try for "godly" status should DEFINITELY be dead for good when you manage to kill them. As a balance they should have some pretty major possible benefits. I think the best way to handle it would be for you to gain power from each person who you recruit as a worshipper (I assume there will be some mechanic for selecting your god once religion comes around). A simple system would be giving you a small percentage of each worshipper's attributes. If you have, say, four or five worshippers you wouldn't be noticeably better than your average playe. If you had four or five hundred you would be truly godly, an unstoppable force on the battlefield (by attributes I mean things like strength, stamina, mana, etc, maybe skill points instead depending on how they affect things)(this could also give rise to crafter and agriculture gods, which would be neat). Using this system not only would the power of the god be determined by his worshippers, but also his nature. A God with a thousand warriors in his service would speed across the battlefield and strike blows that struck down enemies with the ease of bugs beneath the heel. A God with a thousand Mages would cast lightning storms rather than lightning bolts. A God with a thousand crafters would create practically unbreakable items of higher than the highest player quality (mebbe the crafter God could even disperse his unused warrior worship power into his weapons and armor, now THAT would be cool and get them a lot larger following).

If they had a system like this it should of course be ridiculously difficult to try and become a God in the first place. Some kind of really hard quest (not one you can win on skillpoints and armor alone, but one that requires intelligence), preferably where you've gotta turn on PD before you even start out to reduce the number of people who try it in the first place. Then just balance out the power of their worship correctly - most gods will still end up as scrubs who haven't got any more than a little tribe worshipping them, and barely have enough power for an enemy to notice in combat. Those who have power and want to keep it will have to keep busy busy busy pleasing all their worshippers - showing up for the right battles, keeping up the supply of godcrafted breastplates, keeping the arid regions supplied w/ steady rainfall for crops, whatever. On TOP of that, they'll be natural targets for every red in the world who isn't worshipping them. They ought to add some really special bonus for killing a god ("special" depending on the god's power obviously) as well, just to make sure these guys are getting harrassed all the time and it takes a lot of skills and smarts to stay alive in the deity game. Something along the lines of taking that god's power until your next death (making you a demi-god I guess) or either the god's corpse providing some seriously valuable god-exclusive loot.

As to what I think they ACTUALLY meant by the permadeath comments, I agree with one of the above posters who said it would probably be a stat boost based on becoming a specific god's acolyte or champion or something along those lines. I'd imagine that all the different NPC gods would provide different benefits - they talk of the old gods and such, and all the old gods had a specialty, or most of them. They might help your crafting skills, combat, farming, whatever. They might increase your skillcaps or decrease skill decay. They might just give you a steady diet of skill points so you can be a jack of many more trades. They might give you simple modifiers to your actions. One thing is pretty much certain, tho, if you trade it for permadeath it'll probably be an impressive boost.

[Alfred]

http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20021223_05_mistake.gif

Guess we'll have to read it...

..

I'll comment in 2-3 hours.

[Largion]

Nice wall Reefer.

[ChildOfXsyon]

And that's what happens when you smoke reefer. :laugh:

[Alfred]

After reading most of Reefer's book, I must say that I agree with everything he has to say. Sure, permadeath hardly will be a feature, but if it was, those are the reasons for it.

Truly, if permadeath was implemented correctly, it would provide such organized social interaction that has never been seen before. The inevitable side-effect would, of course, be people crapping their pants IRL when ambushed by highwaymen.

[Largion]

Alfred wrote:

After reading most of Reefer's book, I must say that I agree with everything he has to say. Sure, permadeath hardly will be a feature, but if it was, those are the reasons for it.

Truly, if permadeath was implemented correctly, it would provide such organized social interaction that has never been seen before. The inevitable side-effect would, of course, be people crapping their pants IRL when ambushed by highwaymen.

Permadeath is just a way to get a game with endless grined. imo

[JCatano]

Reefer wrote:The mass of "hardcore" players isn't little. Again, refer to the fanbase of original UO, guys who are in every single mmo/forum and who probably outnumber the subscribers of any but the largest MMOs.

According to Raph Koster, "hardcore" players are greatly outnumbered by casual gamers, so I wouldn't base anything in your full post on the former being heavy in population.

[Shrimps]

I've never heard of Raph Koster so I couldn't care less about his baseless opinions or pretty much anything he thinks he knows. Using him as an argument for the "Hardcore" playerbase being small is kind've like me arguing that betty crocker doesn't make food products because fred down the street said so.

Also most people who refer to themselves as "hardcore" pvpers and buy multiple accounts to do so, are actually this guy IRL.

http://www.dawngrrl.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/WindowsLiveWriter/ItstrueIdonereaditonthemInternets_7FE6/fat_guy_in_girl_underwear5.jpg

As for Reefers post GJ!! Pretty much love every idea in that post, plus the printed version makes a very good foot stool. lol

Too bad it probably won't be that in depth but hopefully it will still be good.

[JCatano]

Shrimps wrote:

I've never heard of Raph Koster so I couldn't care less about his baseless opinions or pretty much anything he thinks he knows. Using him as an argument for the "Hardcore" playerbase being small is kind've like me arguing that betty crocker doesn't make food products because fred down the street said so.

I think Koster might know a bit more than you with regard to speaking about games and what type of players dominate the market.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raph_Koster

[Kine]

Alfred wrote:


Truly, if permadeath was implemented correctly, it would provide such organized social interaction that has never been seen before.

100% agree.

Xsyon can get it.

[pid73]

Shrimps wrote:

I've never heard of Raph Koster so I couldn't care less about his baseless opinions or pretty much anything he thinks he knows.

This is your problem. You're playing MMOs (or even any kind of social computer game) and don't know anything about Raph Koster?

oh, my. now and then switch off your nintendo and read a book. or two.

[Shrimps]

pid73 wrote:

Shrimps wrote:

I've never heard of Raph Koster so I couldn't care less about his baseless opinions or pretty much anything he thinks he knows.

This is your problem. You're playing MMOs (or even any kind of social computer game) and don't know anything about Raph Koster?

oh, my. now and then switch off your nintendo and read a book. or two.

That's completely irrelevant.

That's like me saying.. That is your problem you're using electricity or any form of power and you know nothing of William Gilbert (discoverer of electricity in 1550 read a book).

Yes many regard Raph as an expert in MMO's but being an expert just mean you're less wrong in that particular field.

Experts said the Titanic was unsinkable, experts thought that the hindenberg was completely safe, experts used to think you could cure craziness by giving them a lobotomy, and currently experts believe that dark matter could destroy the universe and have created the large hadron collider to create dark matter and find out. smart? no. but some "expert" convinced the world that it's not completely as horrible as you'd think, presumably by promising that it'd be a quick and painless death.

Sorry if I don't put much faith in experts. Some of the worlds greatest things weren't created by experts, pennicilin, peanut butter, flight, cheese, the moving assembly line, the list goes on.

[Snake]

+nods+ @shrimps. great statement :)
but pid was using some kind of humor I guess ;)
keep it rockin' ^^

[pid73]

Shrimps wrote:

pid73 wrote:

Shrimps wrote:

I've never heard of Raph Koster so I couldn't care less about his baseless opinions or pretty much anything he thinks he knows.

This is your problem. You're playing MMOs (or even any kind of social computer game) and don't know anything about Raph Koster?

oh, my. now and then switch off your nintendo and read a book. or two.

That's completely irrelevant.

That's like me saying.. That is your problem you're using electricity or any form of power and you know nothing of William Gilbert (discoverer of electricity in 1550 read a book).

Yes many regard Raph as an expert in MMO's but being an expert just mean you're less wrong in that particular field.

Experts said the Titanic was unsinkable, experts thought that the hindenberg was completely safe, experts used to think you could cure craziness by giving them a lobotomy, and currently experts believe that dark matter could destroy the universe and have created the large hadron collider to create dark matter and find out. smart? no. but some "expert" convinced the world that it's not completely as horrible as you'd think, presumably by promising that it'd be a quick and painless death.

Sorry if I don't put much faith in experts. Some of the worlds greatest things weren't created by experts, pennicilin, peanut butter, flight, cheese, the moving assembly line, the list goes on.

Actually, by your description Koster would be one of those non-expert types.

And if I don't know Gilbert, Edison or Tesla then, actually, you are right and I have a problem.

This has become a world based on information and knowledge. Not knowing is a disadvantage. The less you know the more you are likely to end up in a lower social class, cleaning toilets all your life.

And this is an understatement.

[pid73]

Snake wrote:


but pid was using some kind of humor I guess ;)


No I didn't did I? :angry:

...

Yes I did, didn't I? :laugh: